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January 8th, 2006


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12:30 pm - Work updates, plus more SG-1 season 6....
First of all, the big celebratory news of the weekend: my roommate, Amanda, has been trying to get a certain job for the last six months. This Friday, she was officially hired!

*mad cheering*

This required going out to a pub Friday night with friends, which was fun, but made me tired Saturday.

Particularly since my soon-to-depart supervisor Richie is apparently trying to clean house around our department before he leaves. I approve of this, but it means staying late and coming in to work a half-day on my weekend. That, while padding the paycheck with a few hours on double pay, is annoying. I am behind on all my little weekend things, like laundry (why does the entire compound have to use our laundry machine on Sunday morning?), grocery shopping, and writing.

*sigh*

On the plus side, there was much watching of SG-1 this morning, while I wait for the laundry room to open up.

Specifically, I'm rather intrigued by "The Cure," since I'm aware of what part tritonen (sp?) will play in the Jaffa storyline, and I'm rather creeped out that it originated not with a Goa'uld queen, but with Egeria, who spawned the Tok'ra.

BTW, had we heard of Egeria before this, in canon? Or am I just projecting from fics I've read?

Oh, and just to complain for a minute: in the episode "Allegiance," Bra'tac is beaten and dragged off by the invisible assassin (ash'rak?). Rather logically, all assume him dead. Later, he reappears, asserting that he was left for dead and that his symbiote healed him as he lay unconscious.

That too sounds logical, until we take into account the methods the assassin used to dispatch other Jaffa and Tok'ra earlier in the storyline: a surgical strike either through the back of the neck, severing the spinal columns of both symbiote and host, or up through the pouch, halving the symbiote and killing the Jaffa carrying it.

No way would a competent assassin leaving Bra'tac, as well known to the System Lords as Teal'c, for dead unless he was sure, and if he had stabbed Bra'tac's symbiote, then it should have been either dead or too wounded itself to help heal him. *snarl* Not many big plot holes in this series, but when they have them, they're glaring.

I'll save the rant about whether O'Neill and the Tok'ra (Kataan? sp?) who saved his life were ever truly blended, since we get contradictory information about motivations in "Abyss" and in "Allegiance."


(22 lit candles | Light a candle)

Comments:


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From:kerravonsen
Date:January 8th, 2006 11:05 pm (UTC)
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Yeah, that's why I'm generally "my Stargate universe stops before Meridian" (growl). They're all over the place in season six.

No, I don't think Egeria was mentioned before "The Cure" but I can't be certain. I have mixed feelings about it, because it means that being a Tok'ra is quite probably genetic and not a moral choice. Mind you, you could argue that since the Goa'uld have genetic memory, moral choice is geneticly determined. (sigh)
[User Picture]
From:jedibuttercup
Date:January 9th, 2006 12:25 am (UTC)

Tok'ra

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Then, too, there's the age thing. Selmac is supposed to be one of the oldest among the Tok'ra, right? Especially taking into account events of late season 8, that means really old, as we know from what happened to Yu, whose reign on earth (according to history's best guess) was around 2400 BC. But if Egeria is in our history books as a Roman goddess, nearly two thousand years after that-- and even if she were just the inspiration for that tale, she still couldn't have been active at too much of an earlier time with that name or there would have been older stories about her-- and all the Tok'ra are her children, well, it just doesn't fit. For them to inherit her choice, they must have been born after she gave up goddesshood.

I still think some few-- even several-- of the Tok'ra must have begun life as lesser Goa'uld who consciously decided to give it all up (for whatever reason) the way Egeria did, only as they aren't Queens nor breeding with Queens they haven't left the same legacy. Maybe they were all discontent in isolation until her growing brood gave them a "banner" to flock to? But since they weren't born Tok'ra, and most people assume "Goa'uld = evil", I'd imagine their origins wouldn't exactly be something they shared freely, especially with non-Tok'ra.

With all their negative genetic memories, it would be a lot harder for a Goa'uld to see the light than one born with the memory of that moral choice already made, for certain. A very uphill row to hoe, but not impossible, I think. Not all of the Tok'ra, after all, are all that pure of motivation; surely the opposite applies?

Fanwank, all of it, but it makes analyzing Selmac a heck of a lot more interesting. Someday I'll have to do fic on the subject. =)
[User Picture]
From:kerravonsen
Date:January 9th, 2006 01:43 am (UTC)

Re: Tok'ra

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I still think some few-- even several-- of the Tok'ra must have begun life as lesser Goa'uld who consciously decided to give it all up (for whatever reason) the way Egeria did, only as they aren't Queens nor breeding with Queens they haven't left the same legacy.

I hope so, otherwise it would be really annoying.

Not all of the Tok'ra, after all, are all that pure of motivation; surely the opposite applies?

Again, I hope so. After all, we've got the case of Egeria herself -- she must have managed it!

I really like the AU universe that watervole set up in her Stargate novels, well, especially things she's mentioned about the third not-yet-written one. Thing is, I always felt that the Tok'ra allying with the Jaffa was a match made in heaven, and there's one particular episode (I think it's 7th season) which really got up my nose, because it was saying that the best, true, way for the Jaffa to go was tretonin, ra, ra, ra! Wheras I much prefer the mutual benefit idea of Jaffa and Tok'ra working together, if we ever got a Tok'ra Queen back, because Jaffa could look after Tok'ra larvae, and they would be allies, not slaves.

The Tok'ra are really cool, I don't want them to die out.
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From:izhilzha
Date:January 9th, 2006 06:45 am (UTC)

Re: Tok'ra

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I really like the AU universe that watervole set up in her Stargate novels, well, especially things she's mentioned about the third not-yet-written one.

*pounces* I've been trying to figure out who that was, who posted the link to her Stargate stories on LJ (found on your friendslist), and whose 2 novels (which deeply involve Tok'ra) I am going to recc sometime this week, because I found them perfectly fascinating.

Any ideas about whether #3 is actually going to be written? Having read the first 2 before I watched "The Cure," I'm having very odd thoughts about potential storylines in #3. And frankly, should it be finished soon, I would go to great lengths to get my hands on it. Really good story with really cool background stuff and character stuff and spiritual stuff and, and, and... *fangirls watervole*
[User Picture]
From:kerravonsen
Date:January 9th, 2006 07:58 am (UTC)

Re: Tok'ra

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No idea about the status of #3. All I know is that she has Ideas for it, but considering that she keeps on having health problems (either her voice goes, or her shoulders go, which means that she can't type and she can't use voice software) I don't think it will be anytime soon. But I think it would be nice for her to know how much you appreciate the novels, and send enouraging waves in her direction... 8-)
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From:izhilzha
Date:January 9th, 2006 06:40 am (UTC)

Re: Tok'ra

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Wow, I'm very confused now, being someone who has merely seen up through half of season six. I'm not even going to try deciphering your first paragraph! :-)

With all their negative genetic memories, it would be a lot harder for a Goa'uld to see the light than one born with the memory of that moral choice already made, for certain. A very uphill row to hoe, but not impossible, I think. Not all of the Tok'ra, after all, are all that pure of motivation; surely the opposite applies?

I agree with all you've said about this. Egeria is an example of a Goa'uld who chose a different path; so, on another level that still includes Goa'uld genetic memory, is Shifu. An Harcesis child carries the full genetic memory of the Goa'ulds inhabiting its parents...but with Oma's help, Shifu managed to not be overcome by that memory.

And *snerk* to the Tok'ra not all being pure of motivation...so true.
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:January 9th, 2006 06:35 am (UTC)
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Yeah, that's why I'm generally "my Stargate universe stops before Meridian" (growl). They're all over the place in season six.

And here I thought you just didn't like that they killed Daniel. :-) When did you stop watching SG-1, anyway?

Mind you, you could argue that since the Goa'uld have genetic memory, moral choice is geneticly determined.

As disturbing a concept as that might be, it does make sense (as you say) with what has already been established about Goa'uld genetic memories (though I was startled that the passing on of said memory is supposedly voluntary on the part of the queen. I wonder if Egeria birthed all Tok'ra with her genetic knowledge as well as her moral choice, or if she chose to supress some things frome them).
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From:kerravonsen
Date:January 9th, 2006 08:08 am (UTC)
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And here I thought you just didn't like that they killed Daniel.

No, it wasn't just that. I did get given a "highlights of season 6" marathon courtesy of watervole one visit, and I could see that there were numerous problems. I don't hate Jonas, if only they hadn't tried to make him into a Super-Daniel. I think my favourite Jonas-bit was how he was fascinated by weather forecasting -- and that was partly because it was something that was all his own, not something stolen from Daniel. But there were a lot of crappy things, like the zombie town taken over by immature goa'uld, just to take one example, and the other things I've said above.

I hate it when shows contradict their own canon because they are too lazy to figure out how to do something properly.

When did you stop watching SG-1, anyway?

Well, I actually do have access to DVDs of Season 7 and 8, I just haven't bothered watching them yet, really not very motivated. I can't remember whether I stopped watching on TV in 4 or 5, because I have a vague idea that I caught up on 5 with the DVDs.

I'm really bad at watching TV nowadays. The only things I watched on TV last year was Doctor Who, Midsomer Murders and House. And it may be the same this year...
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From:whitemartyr
Date:January 9th, 2006 03:05 am (UTC)
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Amanda got the job?! YAYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PRAISE GOD! I'm so excited for her! Does she get paid more now? Is she giddy with delight? Oh my goodness I am SO...YAYYYY!!!!!

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From:izhilzha
Date:January 9th, 2006 06:48 am (UTC)
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:-D

She does get paid more now. She's not giddy yet...I think it's still sinking in. But YAAAAYYYYY! God is good! And sometimes it's more obvious than others. :-)
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From:scionofgrace
Date:January 9th, 2006 03:21 am (UTC)
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Egeria was first mentioned in "Crossroads" at the beginning of Season 4. According to Martouf (Heaven rest his dear little soul!), Egeria was a queen who spawned the majority of the Tok'ra, but there were a few other, lesser Goa'uld who joined in.

Man, I forget what happened in "Allegiance"...

O'Neill and the symbiote Canan were never truly (psychologically) blended, or they wouldn't have been able to seperate without one of them dying. Canan just needed a place to hang out, and O'Neill needed the healing. It explains why Jack didn't know any of the information Ba'al was looking for.
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From:kerravonsen
Date:January 9th, 2006 03:26 am (UTC)
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O'Neill and the symbiote Canan were never truly (psychologically) blended

Another reason why I really hated season 6: it contradicts its own pre-established canon, explicitly stated when Jacob and Selmak blended: you can't just blend with a Tok'ra, have it cure your disease, and have it pop back off again. (grrr)


[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:January 9th, 2006 07:03 am (UTC)
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you can't just blend with a Tok'ra, have it cure your disease, and have it pop back off again.

Mmmm, true. Though I bought it, because the Tok'ra seemed so desperate for whatever information Canan had, that I figured they might be able to pull something like this off, just once.

Not that it mattered in the end. Canan left Jack (and then presumably died), and Jack went straight into a sarcophagus.
[User Picture]
From:kerravonsen
Date:January 9th, 2006 03:27 am (UTC)
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(LOL at icon!)
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From:izhilzha
Date:January 9th, 2006 06:59 am (UTC)
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Egeria was first mentioned in "Crossroads" at the beginning of Season 4.

Hah! I knew I'd heard the name on the show before! Aw, I miss Martouf.

Man, I forget what happened in "Allegiance"...

A bunch of Tok'ra escape from Anubis' strike force through their Gate to the Alpha site. An invisible assassin tags along, and tries to turn the Jaffa and Tok'ra refugees against each other.

O'Neill and the symbiote Canan were never truly (psychologically) blended, or they wouldn't have been able to seperate without one of them dying.

Hang on. Aren't the Tok'ra able to seperate symbiote and host without harm to either? I thought that had been established. My brain is spitting "Skaara" at me, but maybe it was someone else whose example we have...?

Canan just needed a place to hang out, and O'Neill needed the healing. It explains why Jack didn't know any of the information Ba'al was looking for.

Oh, but Jack *did* know some of the information. Not completely, but by the end of the episode, it sure seemed like he was remembering more and more, and it had been something more like a voluntary (on Canan's part) supression of memories than that they never shared a mind at all.

Besides, while in "Allegiance" Jacob/Selmak apologizes to Jack because Canan "used" him, in "Abyss" the reason that Carter and the others figure out Canan's motivation in returning to Ba'al's base is because Canan did something very, very Jack-like: refused to leave the slave he loved behind. He went back for her. I think someone (Carter, I bet) actually attributes Canan's act to Jack's influence.

I think I may have to fic about the time between Jack being sent off to the Tok'ra through the end of Abyss....
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From:kerravonsen
Date:January 9th, 2006 08:15 am (UTC)
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Aw, I miss Martouf.

Me too. Hankering for an AU in which he doesn't die -- know of any?
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From:izhilzha
Date:January 9th, 2006 08:32 am (UTC)
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Oh, there has to be a couple. I think I may have read one, but for the life of me I can't recall a title or author name. :-(

Though I don't often read AUs--if I had realized *how* AU watervole's novels would be, I might actually have avoided them; which would have been sad and stupid, since even things I would normally be really werided out by (Jack/Kantele with how mixed up that is, and the whole Maybourne thing, and a kid named Sunshine) worked really well, and it's definitely one of the better novel-length fics I've read in any fandom.

Also, some seriously corrective canon-preservation, yes? :-) With all the stuff about Kantele's heritage....
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From:kerravonsen
Date:January 9th, 2006 08:42 am (UTC)
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Also, some seriously corrective canon-preservation, yes? :-) With all the stuff about Kantele's heritage....

And not only that... she's been very good at trying to keep things consistent with canon -- more consistent than the show is, really...
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From:jd3000
Date:January 9th, 2006 05:31 pm (UTC)
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Hang on. Aren't the Tok'ra able to seperate symbiote and host without harm to either? I thought that had been established. My brain is spitting "Skaara" at me, but maybe it was someone else whose example we have...?

I believe in "The Tok'ra, Part II" that the leader of the Tok'ra (Ursa in Superman I & II), can't remember her character name, ordered that Cordesh the traitor be removed from his involuntary host.

Wait, here it is.

GARSHAW: I am sickened to think I once called you my friend, Cordesh, but I want you to know - the System Lords will fall, but you won't be alive to see it. [To other Tok'ra people] Attempt to remove Cordesh from the host without harming her. Then put this traitor in one of the vanishing tunnels. [She kisses Jack on both of his cheeks] I believe I shall be proud to call you friend.

Ick. "Attempt to remove Cordesh" without harming the host. Then Garshaw assumes Cordesh the symbiote will live, since she orders its subsequent execution.

Unless the host was not involuntary, and Garshaw was ordering the host be tunnel-vanished, but I don't think there was any indication the host was guilty, too. Hmm...plot changes about Tok'ra society are as widespread as those of the Klingons in TNG. :-)

-JD
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From:izhilzha
Date:January 10th, 2006 01:37 am (UTC)
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Hmmm. Thanks muchly for the transcript-finding...it does sound like they might have a way of doing it, just not a totally foolproof one?
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From:jd3000
Date:January 10th, 2006 05:14 pm (UTC)
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Well, either it wasn't entirely foolproof at the time, but they've since perfected it, or Garshaw knew Cordesh and his new host were both traitors, and didn't particularly care if either one of them survived the process.

-JD
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From:jd3000
Date:January 9th, 2006 05:43 pm (UTC)
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I agree with your point about Bra'tac's mysterious survival. Best written off as a blatant case of James Bondian Survival.

Now regarding the whole "Can't just heal you and pop out again" reversal, maybe it's possible the Tok'ra were hoping O'Neill wouldn't choose to be separated. They're in alliance with the Tau'ri, whom despite their limitations are proving to be extremely capable soldiers in the fight against the Goa'uld. The leader of the most eminent party of the Tau'ri is also the one least satisfied with the alliance. Then they get the chance to make him a Tok'ra. Beauty! They get a badly-needed host for one of their eminent symbiotes, and they can be reasonably sure when O'Neill experiences blending, his eyes will be opened as to the fairness and benefit of such a union. At the very least, he might well lose his ingrained prejudice against symbiotes.

Also, perhaps Selmak's case was different than this situation. Selmak was growing weaker along with his host, and was considering taking a terminally ill human for a new host. He himself admitted they could both die during the blending. He may have been able to pop out again, but he knew it would take a very long time before they would both grow strong enough to survive the process.

-JD

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