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July 19th, 2009


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08:23 pm - Fandom, you are depressing me.
Nobody can agree on anything, apparently. The slashers want inclusion in gen comm recs. So do the het writers. But nobody can agree to just go with "gen = absolutely no mention of romance," either, because it would exclude so many good fics which mention some canon pairing in passing.

There isn't even flaming going on, but I kind of want to leave fandom for good. All of it. Forever. Because a sandbox where nobody agrees is just as bad as one that's permanently on fire.
Current Mood: aggravatedaggravated

(26 lit candles | Light a candle)

Comments:


[User Picture]
From:sarcasticval
Date:July 20th, 2009 03:45 am (UTC)
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Not my intention to sound flip, but I've *never* been in a fandom where everyone agrees. On the internet, I don't believe such a thing is possible.

Edited at 2009-07-20 03:45 am (UTC)
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 04:10 am (UTC)
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It's a little flip.

I'm just sick to death of endless discussions that go nowhere.
[User Picture]
From:feliciakw
Date:July 20th, 2009 09:48 am (UTC)
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If this has to do with the discussion I've started, I'd like to simply point out that I did not start the discussion with the intention of getting my specific example recced in the comm. I was using my own fic as an example of a point on which I'm . . . fuzzy . . . as to how far fandom currently takes their definitions.

I've learned that they don't take them very far for some, and they take them really far for others.

Which means I'm learning that I can't trust any of them the way I used to.

That's it.

I'm sorry it's depressing you.
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 04:42 pm (UTC)
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It has to do with the discussion that started at spngenlove. Flat out. Which means your discussion became an extension of it, but I'm not blaming you or anything.

I just...it made me sad that people weren't listening to some of us, and it made me sadder that apparently you and I aren't even on the same fandom page, it makes me wonder if I'm in the part of fandom you can't/don't trust. Am I making sense?

And it was too, too much on top of being massively depressed for most of the week in RL. (Do please pray for me; I'm not coping as well as I should be.)
[User Picture]
From:feliciakw
Date:July 20th, 2009 05:22 pm (UTC)
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Oh, good grief. Don't make me slap you. Please?

You I trust. You I beta for. (Though I'm now wondering if your visions!Dean fic will get a het label because it deals with the aftermath of Sam/Madison as a primary component to the story's central plot. I'd call it gen, but then, I'm coming from the "het=adult", trained-in-the-Old-Ways POV of fandom, so there ya go.)

No, what I'm saying is that things are not being appropriately labeled in such a way that they help me anymore. When Sam and Jess simply sharing living space is considered het and a "pairing," that doesn't help me any because, dude, I know they were living together. I know they were a pair. It's how canon begins the modern portion of the story! I see Sam/Jess in a description, I expect some sexin'. Het Dean/OFC could mean Dean flirts with a jewelry store clerk or it could mean that Dean beds the beautiful blonde bar wench in a night of wanton passion that leaves them both breathless, sated, and non-virginal. So the "het" label does me no good. I know Dean's a flirt, and I know he has sex with pretty women. What I want to know going into a fic is how graphic things are going to get.

I suppose I'm mourning the loss of sane, reasonable, clearly defined labels that is prevalent in this fandom. Everybody wants to be included in everything, readers want to be warned for an inkling of anything, and those of us who (usually) take responsibility for our own reading choices (provided they are clearly labeled/warned/caveated by the author) now have to filter through all the shades of gray that are being imposed on the fic.

In other words, I'm not at all sure this comm is going to be of benefit to me. It remains to be seen.

(This is why I miss CT . . . gen was gen, slash was slash--and patently not permitted--and the ratings told you the rest.)

(See my response to July in my own post.)
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 05:39 pm (UTC)
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See, I guess I always figured that "het" was a type (ie, there would be romance or sex in it), and the rating is how you knew whether there would be actual sexin'. So I would avoid the PG-13/R rating unless that's what I was looking for. And sometimes, of course, that wouldn't be the case, and the rating could be for language or violence, but.... It worked for me.

In other words, I'm not at all sure this comm is going to be of benefit to me.

Perhaps you'll be of benefit to the comm? You have gen fics bookmarked, I know, just like I do--I have 3 years' worth on my delicious list and I know where to find more. :)

I just...you don't have to slap me, lol. But I've adjusted via SG-1 and other fandoms, and while I can operate fine within a fandom like TS, gen = not slash, I can also operate within gen = no romance (like in SG-1).

Um. Each Should Carry is going to be gen as far as I'm concerned, but I'm sure there'll be a note somewhere saying that it's set directly after "Heart." Those who don't want Sammy/Madison angst lurking about would then know to avoid it. (and there aren't going to be any *explicit* flashbacks to kissing or sexing, so.)
[User Picture]
From:mosinging1986
Date:July 20th, 2009 03:58 am (UTC)
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My first online fandom was XF. I had no idea what fandom even was. I also fell in with a bunch of very sane people, so I managed to avoid the general craziness that happens.

I'm very glad of that. If I had learned of the insanity right away, I would've run screaming into the night immediately and would've missed out on some great friendships and experiences!
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 04:27 pm (UTC)
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I also fell in with a bunch of very sane people, so I managed to avoid the general craziness that happens.

I seem to have a radar for finding the sane people in new fandoms...which means when I do fall into a comm with some of the crazier ones, it drives me up a wall. Oh well.
[User Picture]
From:kalquessa
Date:July 20th, 2009 05:22 am (UTC)
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1. I do find it baffling that every time the question of what qualifies as gen comes up in SPN fandom, it's a really thorny issue. I can't think of another fandom I've been in where that's the case. Maybe I'm just not paying very close attention in my other fandoms? *shrug*

2. Dude, you must know that hanging out and watching the discussion is going to frustrate you to no purpose, yet you are doing it anyway. Do you need me to come throw myself on your laptop and yell "INTERVENTIOOON!!" or what?
[User Picture]
From:sarcasticval
Date:July 20th, 2009 06:03 am (UTC)
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...I kind of want you to randomly pop up during all of my life decision and yell at me. "NOOO THAT TOP DOES NOT GO WITH THOSE SHOOOOOOES!"
[User Picture]
From:kalquessa
Date:July 20th, 2009 03:15 pm (UTC)
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And all your friends are like, "Why do you have a random pregnant chick that slide-tackles you every time you sit down to eat something that's going to make you gassy?"
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 04:30 pm (UTC)
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1. Yeah, what you said. It doesn't seem to be as big an issue anywhere else (and where it is, people like sg_fignewton tend to stand up and make completely, obnoxiously gen safe spaces, heh).

2. I've stopped, now. This was the post I made when I decided it would be pointless to continue. *sigh* I just...I dunno. I hate feeling like I can't even properly advocate for gen. It's quite enough that I'm ineffective in RL right now. Argh.

(And it's already toasty this morning, wtf? *plots to escape to coffee shop at soonest opportunity*)
[User Picture]
From:kalquessa
Date:July 20th, 2009 05:22 pm (UTC)
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I hate feeling like I can't even properly advocate for gen.

Dear Eldest Child Sarah:

We are writing to remind you that some things don't have to be your problem. Also to respectfully suggest that this might be one of those things.

Cordially,

The Eldest Child Consortium
Department of Duty and Responsibility
Office for the Prevention of Exploding Heads

(And it's already toasty this morning, wtf? *plots to escape to coffee shop at soonest opportunity*)

Here, too! *dies* All those optimistic noises I made about being pregnant during the summer? Pbbtz! I am going to go fill my bathtub up with ice cubes, now...
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 05:28 pm (UTC)
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*falls over laughing*

Oh, Marie, you are made of awesome. Nicely done. And point taken.

Yeah, I didn't even have breakfast, it's too hot here to bother. I'm going to buy something at the shop, and leaving now.
[User Picture]
From:feliciakw
Date:July 20th, 2009 05:36 pm (UTC)
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I do find it baffling that every time the question of what qualifies as gen comes up in SPN fandom, it's a really thorny issue.

You're also talking about a fandom wherein a significant percentage of fans find incest to be an acceptable, even admirable, form of expressing affection and love.

Do with that as you will.

The fuzzier the lines become, the worse it's going to get.
[User Picture]
From:kalquessa
Date:July 20th, 2009 05:53 pm (UTC)
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True. I'm never precisely surprised at SPN fandom* because that would require me to have an opinion of SPN fandom that went beyond "Haha, you so crazy!" But I do still sort of wonder from time to time what makes it such an odd creature when some fandoms manage to be so sane. Personally, I blame the vampires. They ruin everything, do vampires.

*Of course, my first fandom was Harry Potter. Which has every hair-curling convention found in SPN and more besides...all with underage wizards! Nothing is scary or surprising after HP fandom.

(edited because typing is hard)

Edited at 2009-07-20 05:56 pm (UTC)
[User Picture]
From:leelust
Date:July 20th, 2009 09:17 am (UTC)
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What amused me is that slashers want to be include in gen. How's that even possible?
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 04:32 pm (UTC)
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I don't know. *g* Everybody wants to be inclusive these days. And while I think the idea of inclusiveness is noble, in practice it tends to be unworkable and to do nothing but upset everyone.
[User Picture]
From:mistraltoes
Date:July 20th, 2009 10:19 am (UTC)
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This isn't really a fandom problem; it's a problem of modern society. If we must always be inclusive, then we can never exclude anything. No lines can ever be drawn, because somebody will be offended at the thought they can't cross them.

Which unfortunately means that leaving fandom won't solve the problem. I feel for ya, I do. The "warnings" debate nearly made me as close to suicidal as I get. This discussion is at least well-mannered.

I've come to the conclusion that community mods should set their own criteria, because they're never going to get consensus. Those who want other criteria can start other communities.
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 04:36 pm (UTC)
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*is amused and chastened by Taub in your icon*

I'm not always a black-and-white person, but by golly if there are lines that can or should be drawn, I like to draw them. It's nice to have SOMETHING in the universe that isn't constantly moving.

Seriously, as a writer I'm terribly inclusive in the sense that I love seeing how other people live and why and what that's like. But taking that into RL is eventually going to drive me to drink or something.

I've come to the conclusion that community mods should set their own criteria, because they're never going to get consensus.

Yes. This. Entirely. Which is what feliciakw and I did for real_numb3rs--we found a definition of "canon" that we liked and stuck with it.
[User Picture]
From:feliciakw
Date:July 20th, 2009 05:29 pm (UTC)
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And we didn't even ask anyone else's opinion or permission. *gasp!*
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 05:42 pm (UTC)
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I know. I like to think it's not because we're arrogant, but simply because we've been in fandom long enough to know better. *g*
[User Picture]
From:ficwriter1966
Date:July 20th, 2009 01:08 pm (UTC)
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Oh, I hear ya. If the whole thing were civilized - the new mods asked for people's input on what they thought "gen" meant (which seems to vary pretty widely). Folks provided some good input, I thought. But then you get the ones who are morally, self-righteously and purple-faced outraged that they could be excluded from ANYTHING, even if they had no intention of participating in the first place. I tried to make the example of: would you insist that a piece of Renaissance art ought to be hung in the Museum of Modern Art simply because it's "excellent"? And got quickly slapped down because I was suggesting exclusion.

I guess the only conclusion to draw is that some people (for a reason I will never understand) thrive on discord. Please don't let it drive you from the fandom. There *are* level-headed people here. (Though it would be nice if "level-headed" didn't mean "shoved into a corner and told to shut up".)
[User Picture]
From:izhilzha
Date:July 20th, 2009 04:37 pm (UTC)
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Heh. Glad to see I'm not the only one frustrated by a discussion which managed to be mostly civil (yay).
[User Picture]
From:trinityday
Date:July 21st, 2009 12:59 pm (UTC)
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But... but... slashers have so many rec comms. And hets have a fair number, too (especially depending on the fandom). Gen is GEN! Gen doesn't get enough love as it is.
[User Picture]
From:snickelish
Date:July 21st, 2009 05:17 pm (UTC)
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I'm sorry to hear that fandom is stressing you out. If it helps, you're one of my gen heroes, because I read you talking about it and celebrating it even before I got into fandom.

And phooey on RL getting you down. :(

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